False Brethern

July 21, 2008

This is important, please read all of the following verses first because it really doesn’t matter what I say or what I think. It really only matter’s what God’s Word says.

Acts 20:29-30

29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves”

Check out this quote from Rick Warren

“I would match any 1,000 members of Saddleback to any 1,000 members of any other church in terms of spiritual maturity, godliness, Scriptures memorized, serving in ministry, and doing missions around the world.”

Then go back and look at Warrens root and tell me what kind of fruit those efforts will truly produce.

Look at a couple more of Ricks own comments.

Most people have no idea- zero- of what is Saddleback Church is really like. They have bought into all the stupid misinformation that circulates on the internet, and in books by people who aren’t even believers and have never even talked to me.

2 Cor 11:4-6,12-14

For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

 5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles. 6 Even though I am untrained in speech, yet I am not in knowledge. But we have been thoroughly manifested among you in all things.

12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

1 Tim 6:10

10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

2 Tim 3:13

13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived”

2 Tim 4:3

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;”

2 Peter 2:1-3

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

2 Peter 3:15-16

15 and consider thatthe longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

 

1 John 1:19-21

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1John 4:5-6

5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Jude 10

10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves”

Jude 16

16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.”

And here is what the Old Testament says about the character of the anti-christ

Daniel 8:23-25

23 “ And in the latter time of their kingdom,
      When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
      A king shall arise,
      Having fierce features,
      Who understands sinister schemes.
       24 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
      He shall destroy fearfully,
      And shall prosper and thrive;
      He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.
       25 “ Through his cunning
      He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;
      And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
      He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
      He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
      But he shall be broken without human means.
      

2 Thess 2:3-12

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

 

Now if you have skipped all the scripture I have quoted and just scrolled down to what I have to say there is a good chance you could be false brethren.

Why? Beause what I have to say certainly is not as important as what scripture teaches.

Some wonder why I have such a problem with Rick Warren and the new way he has built.

The problem I have with Rick is he did not build his man made empire (Saddleback and Purpose Driven way) on what God’s word teaches but instead he used his own man made business techniques and savvy marketing.

Rick went around and asked unsaved people what they wanted in a church and he served it up. It really is no more complex than that. Warren relied on the council of the unsaved to build his empire.

Go read Acts 2:37-42. And this is not just Rick error but the error of all that practice seeker sensitive methods. It just doesnt jive with scripture. But they brag about there numbers. The numbers mean nothing if they are false conversions. And I do not believe that God honors business savvy efforts if they dont align with scripture no matter what the numbers of false conversions look like.

God also does not honor people who are a braggart and prideful.

Pride comes before the fall something we all need to listen to.

Check out this quote from Rick Warren

“I would match any 1,000 members of Saddleback to any 1,000 members of any other church in terms of spiritual maturity, godliness, Scriptures memorized, serving in ministry, and doing missions around the world.”

Then go back and look at Warrens root and tell me what kind of fruit those efforts will truly produce.

Look at a couple more of Ricks own comments.

Most people have no idea- zero- of what is Saddleback Church is really like. They have bought into all the stupid misinformation that circulates on the internet, and in books by people who aren’t even believers and have never even talked to me.

“Never believe second- hand sources about Saddleback. They are ALWAYS wrong.”

But wait a minute here both Chris Rosebrough and Bob Dewaay did have a first hand conversation with Rick Warren at Saddleback.

You can go to Chris’s website and see what Chris came away with here on Chris’s own site. Chris as well had conversations with Ricks unofficial spokesperson Richard Abanes as well and still came away with “Purpose Driven preaching is Christless Christianity”

source and Chris’s site

http://www.extremetheology.com/2008/06/rick-warren-p-2.html#comments

http://www.extremetheology.com/2008/06/index.html

What Bob Dewaay came away with after meeting with Rick Warren.

May 31, 2008

Bob Dewaay wrote

I wrote my book, Redefining Christianity, assuming that Rick Warren actually believes the Saddleback Church’s statement of faith, but that he refuses to preach it because he wants to be popular with the world and grow his movement. I still think that could still be true—I give him the benefit of the doubt.

At the Saddleback Church conference he was speaking of winning souls for Christ and talking about his father’s legacy of building churches and winning souls. More than likely he believes Baptist doctrine. But along the way he was derailed by reading the church growth theory of Donald McGavran. While in seminary I studied under a disciple of McGavran. McGavran’s book was required reading. His philosophy hinges on this idea: “people do not become Christian for theological reasons, but for sociological ones.”

Rick Warren believed McGavran and set out to study people to find out what makes them tick so he could get them into church — thus “Saddleback Sam.” Purpose Driven is a franchise system to multiply this idea into other churches. Warren tells pastors that they do not have to change any doctrine to join his movement. The reason for that is that doctrine becomes unimportant because it is no longer taught. I don’t think Rick Warren changed his Baptist doctrine either; he just doesn’t allow it to determine what he teaches and what he does. When we met that is what I challenged him about.

So I have not moved in my beliefs nor have I changed my position on any doctrines I have preached.

I will not allow myself to be pitted against any of Warren’s critics. I read Warren Smith’s book and spoke with him on the phone. He is a wonderful brother. The New Age implications are in Rick Warren’s movement and are helping lead toward a One World church. But because he has publicly made statements besides his statement of faith that he believes there is a literal hell and that people without Christ will go there, I don’t believe Rick Warren is a true New Age believer, and neither does Warren Smith. Warren Smith simply says there are New Age implications to what Rick Warren is doing, and I agree with him.

Tomorrow morning I will make a statement clarifying what I mean when I said that we did not have theological disagreements in our meeting. Rick Warren did not disagree with my positions on doctrine in our meeting. But he did not comment on everything I said. Please read my book, because in it I point out that Rick Warren privately affirms orthodox Christian theology—he did so again in our presence. So this is not news worthy.

To set the record straight, for those who think I am suddenly okay with Rick Warren – I am not. I asked him to preach Christ and honor the idea of scripture alone – and I pointed out that he cannot have a “reformation” based on general revelation.

These are huge issues and he did not say he was going to change anything—but he did not disagree. Do Warren’s supporters really think that having an orthodox theology in private is all that God expects of a preacher? Do they think we should not hold Rick Warren accountable to sola scriptura? Do they think that we can have any old ministry philosophy even if doing so totally changes the definition of the church and her message from how the Bible defines them?

I challenge Rick Warren’s supporters to step up to the plate and demand that Rick Warren repent, as I requested him to do in my book. That statement is posted at http://www.twincityfellowship.com/special/appeal.pdf Otherwise they have no business claiming that I agree with them.

Bob DeWaay

Another problem and danger here is Richard Abanes. Richard spin is highly tuned and often blames people who disagree with Rick Warren a number of ways.

Here is but a few examples

Warren Smith is a former New Ager who for many years has produced material exposing the false teachings of not only the New Age Movement, but also various other religious belief systems based on unbiblical forms of spirituality. By serving God in this way, Smith has been of great service to the body of Christ. Unfortunately, Smith is now most notable for his concentrated and persistent attacks against Rick Warren (author of The Purpose-Driven Life and The Purpose Driven Church). “end quote source http://abanes.com/warrensmith.html

My comment

So Warren Smith has been of great service to the Body of Christ until he disagreed with Rick Warren.

And on Chris Rosebrough

” I think you’re interpreting Warren’s words through your sensitivity as a Lutheran to anything that even hints of the law.”

Chris’s reply

“So this is not a Lutheran doctrine that I am defending this is a Christian and Biblical doctrine that I am defending.” source http://www.extremetheology.com/2008/06/rick-warren-p-2.html#comments

And Richard has now went so far as to impute Bud Press’s sense of discernment to Bud’s nickname.

source http://richardabanes.wordpress.com/2008/07/20/bud-press-christian-research-service/

Richard then goes on to mock Bud’s service to our country in the special forces through his own Abanes innuendo. This is a new low for even Richard Abanes.

And Abanes accuses Bud Press and myself of slander. Wow, simply unbelivable. I want to state though I do not need to defend my friend and brother in the Lord Bud Press. The truth will always defend itself through the Holy Spirit.

Bud Press and his website are known worldwide for providing irrefutable research and factual information. Abanes in his article does not provide not even one piece on evidence where Bud is in error about scripture or research.

The reason is that Richard doesnt provide any evidence against Bud is because there is none.

You decide whether you want to believe Abanes rhetoric of Bud Press’s facts.

You see with Abanes when it comes to Rick Warren everyone is wrong except for poor mistreated Richard.

And Richard will point and blame and whine and cry like some poor hurt soul while he continues to throw biblically based ministries under the bus.

The reason perhaps the Abanes will not do a update on Ken Blanchard and why Richard so staunchly tries to protect Rick Warrens faith?

Its because he has to or he gets kicked out of the club.

Look at this quote from Rick Warren.”We take membership extremely seriously at Saddleback Church, and people who don’t abide by the covenant are disciplined and removed.” source  http://timmybrister.com/2008/05/16/rick-warren-signs-on-to-ascols-resolution/

Richard Abanes if he is a member of Saddleback signed the Saddleback membership covenant (which is another unbiblical practice of Rick Warrens way). Richard promises to follow the leaders of Saddleback.

Here is some commentary from my brother in the Lord Paul Proctor on this subject-

c) “…By following the leaders” (Regardless of their error or deceit?)

 

Warren’s scripture reference:

“Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be no advantage to you.” – Heb. 13:17

 

Just as Romans 13 is so often misused today to persuade us that we should blindly obey those given governmental authority over us, even if it goes against God’s Word and Will (as tragically demonstrated by the rise and reign of Adolph Hitler over Germany during WW II), Hebrews 13 CAN BE and OFTEN IS misused in the same way regarding leadership and “followship” in the church. Having come from a Willow Creek member church myself whose pastor regularly deceived and abused his flock by dedicating much, if not most of his “ministry” time consolidating for himself a political powerbase from which every decision he made could be forced upon the church body without question or discussion, I understand all too well the danger of absolute power. You see — Rick Warren’s church membership covenant makes no exception here for errant pastors, staff members or teachers who disobey or disavow scripture to carry out some other agenda. This is an open door for corruption, especially in a church that is scripturally illiterate and emotionally driven. “

source http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor3.htm

 

In conclusion you will have to decide for yourself who is the false brethren and who is not.

 I suggest you strictly use scripture as your measuring rod here.

 

The point is both Richard Abanes and the ministries Abanes opposes (including mine) cant both be right.

 

Someone is wrong because we are diametrically opposite of each other even though both may claim to believe a orthodox statement of the Christian faith..

 

Sure someone can cut and paste any kind of statement of faith and say they are following it.

 

But we are to test all things and check the fruit on the tree.

 

You decide who is of God and who is not of God.

 

Let the Holy Spirit lead you into all truth not me.

 

Peace

Tim Wirth

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One Response to “False Brethern”

  1. Abanes : I see where you have already posted a link to this article. You really need to get a life.
    Plus how do you find the time to spend so much time online even promoting eve online and you still will not provide a update on Ken Blanchard.
    Opps I already answered that in my article.
    As for eve online I think this speaks volumes to your character.
    Eve online states
    “The ultimate goal in EVE is power. It can be power over the market, military dominance, financial power, or political power. ”
    And you think Im goofy.
    That would be funny if you were not such a danger to the Body of Christ.
    Tim

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