I stumbled on this over at Phoenix Preacher and thought the article was interesting and said a lot about Michael Newnham and his ability to discern.

Here is the link to that article http://phoenixpreacher.com/cms/?p=3075

Here are a couple gems from that article.

Bernard was a Catholic monk…and a mystic.
He also is probably more responsible for the cult of Mary in Catholicism today than any other father. 
However, along with these and other dogmas that both the Reformers rejected, Bernard wrote some of the seminal theology that evolved into the doctrine of justification that we hold to in Protestantism today.
While both men quoted more frequently from Augustine than any other father, Bernard was quoted often and was commended highly by both men. 
He was also held by both not only to be a brother, but a “doctor” in the church”

Luther and Calvin could affirm Bernard as a brother and glean from his work that which was good and biblical without embracing everything he wrote.
A true, mature believer can glean from all of the above as well as Warren, Henri Nouwen, Richard Foster and the rest of the brethren that the asses never stop braying at.
The one incident I’m most ashamed of that happened here was when I jumped on Rolph for recommending Nouwen…then read with wonder Nouwen’s “Prodigal Son”.
I was immature and ignorant and proud of both.
That in my opinion, is the perpetual state of most of the “discernment ministries”. 
Unfortunately, it’s too often my state as well.
If Luther and Calvin can practice a “generous orthodoxy”…we should too. end quote

And of course read the whole article so you can be sure I am not taking Michael out of context with the two quotes I am using.

I also think its a natural transition for many in the Reformed/Calvinist crowd (not all though) to start to join with the Emergent church and those authors that Emergents promote. And I think Michael himself states the reasons why.

To me this is a Oprah Winfrey style of logic that lacks serious discernment and let me explain why. Oprah as well states that she is a Christian. She also has stated that she does not believe that Jesus could not possibly be the only way. Oprah would agree that we could learn lots of things from good people as she exposes many people to her new age ideas.

So since Oprah states she is a Christian it must be ok to go with whoever she endorses. We may not agree with everything that person states but Im sure we may find something good in what they have to offer.

That is Oprah Winfrey logic.

 Now I sincerely do not believe that Oprah is a Christian and I have no reason to believe that Michael Newnman is not a Christian.

But Michael could very easily expose a Christian to very real danger the same way his pal Richard Abanes does.

So Michael thinks that we discernment ministries are immature and ignorant because we caution against new age forms of spirituality and prayer that are outside of scripture?

I guess  then its smart to state for Christians that they can learn a little something from anyone who calls him or herself a Christian.

That may stroke the intellict but will it make them grow as a Christian?

Or will it open them up to dangerous new age ideas?

You decide.

You could use this type of logic to justify gleaning from anyone lets take a look at Henri Nouwen first.

From my friend and brother in the Lord Ray Yungen’s book “A Time Of Departing” 

 

An individual who has gained popularity and respect in Christian circles, akin to that of Thomas Merton, is the now deceased [Roman] Catholic theologian Henri Nouwen… Many pastors and professors are greatly attracted to his deep thinking. In fact, one of his biographers revealed that in a 1994 survey of 3,400 U.S. Protestant church leaders, Nouwen ranked second only to Billy Graham… (61)

Unfortunately, this widely read and often-quoted author, at the end of his life, stated in clear terms that he approached God from a universalistic view. He proclaimed: “Today I personally believe that Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her way to God.” (Nouwen, Sabbatical Journey, p.51)

Nouwen’s endorsement of a book by Hindu spiritual teacher Elnath Easwaran, teaching mantra meditation, further illustrates his universalistic sympathies. On the back cover, Nouwen stated, “This book has helped me a great deal.” (62)

Nouwen was clearly a universalist who also struggled in some other areas of life. No matter what the guy wrote why would a Christian wanted to glean off a universalist.

Then there is Richard Foster who endorses the new age form of prayer called contemplative prayer.

Foster states that there are certain styles of prayer that you need to use caution.

Where in the Bible does it state this?

Where in the Bible does it state that certain types of prayer are not for the novice.

Here is some real words of caution from my brother in the Lord Roger Oakland.

“Contemplative Prayer or Terror?”
Proponents of contemplative prayer say the purpose of contemplative prayer is to tune in with God and hear His voice. However, Richard Foster claims that practitioners must use caution. He admits that in contemplative prayer “we are entering deeply into the spiritual realm” and that sometimes it is not the realm of God even though it is “supernatural.” He admits there are spiritual beings and that a prayer of protection should be said beforehand something to the effect of “All dark and evil spirits must now leave.”1 Where in Scripture do we find such a prayer? Where in witchcraft?
I wonder if all these Christians who now practice contemplative prayer are following Foster’s advice. Whether they are or not, they have put themselves in spiritual harm’s way. Nowhere in Scripture are we required to pray a prayer of protection before we pray. The fact that Foster recognizes contemplative prayer is dangerous and opens the door to the fallen spirit world is very revealing. What is this–praying to the God of the Bible but instead reaching demons? Maybe contemplative prayer should be renamed contemplative terror.
While Foster has said repeatedly that contemplative prayer is for everyone, he contradicts himself when he says it is only for a select group and not for the “novice.”2 He says not everyone is ready and equipped to listen to God’s voice through the “all embracing silence.”3
This is amazing. Foster admits that contemplative prayer is dangerous and will possibly take the participant into demonic realms, but he gives a disclaimer saying not everyone is ready for it. My question is, who is ready, and how will they know they are ready? What about all the young people in the emerging church movement? Are they ready? Or are they going into demonic altered states of consciousness completely unaware? Given Foster’s admission of the danger, he does great damage when he says: “We should all, without shame, enroll in the school of contemplative prayer.”4
Foster’s implication that some contemplative prayer is safe is terribly mistaken. No contemplative prayer is biblical or safe–even the most mature of the Christian mystical leaders proved susceptible to its demonic pull. Thomas Merton at the end of his life said he wanted to be the best Buddhist he could be. Henri Nouwen at the end of his life said all paths lead to God. This was the spiritual fruit of their lives after years of practicing mystical prayer.
[In relation to mysticism and contemplative prayer], the real question is whether or not the realm of the silence is God’s realm or Satan’s–light or darkness. The Bible tells us that Satan is very deceptive, and what can often look good is not good at all:And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness. (II Corinthians 11:14-15)

 

The word occultism means hidden or secret. There are two connotations to this. The first level involves employment of these practices themselves. Throughout human history, mystical techniques were used by only a small number of persons. The terms esoteric and arcane are often used to signify the fact that these practices have been traditionally concealed. Occult methods almost always employ the use of altered states of consciousness induced by prolonged focus and repetition–a practice that has largely been unknown to many … until now!
A second and perhaps more important concept agrees that behind the physical world lies a hidden reality, and we can interact and have a relationship with this hidden spiritual realm. Occult practitioners in every age and every country agree that all of creation is connected together and God is in all of creation–thus, all is God. These two definitions sum up occultism succinctly. The contemplative prayer movement conforms to these aspects of occultism to the letter.
It is for this very reason I have devoted an entire chapter of Faith Undone to contemplative spirituality. Mystical practices have entered the church through these ancient Christian mystics (ancient wisdom), and they have become the driving force of the emerging church. (from chapter 6, Faith Undone by Roger Oakland)
In conclusion  I find it interestin to see ober at the Phoenix Preacher myself and my fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord are constantly accused of hate speech by Michael and Abanes.
Funny how that works isnt it.
They can use hate speech when speaking about us. Cor 13 totally ignored.
But yet we point out error or disagree with Rick Warren and instantly we hate Rick Warren or some other misguided soul.
I dont hate anyone.
So to the other camp disagreement=hate speech.
Disagree with Rick Warren=hate speech.
Chris Rosebrough from Extreme Theology refered to “Purpose Driven Preaching as Christless Christianity”.
There is a differance between hate and hard truth.
Well let it be so.
What good for us isnt good for them.
Michael also has commented that I dont let certain comments or posts fly.
He is correct.
My blog I choose what goes up.
Richard Abanes does the same thing but thats ok I guess since its Richard.
You see Michael I guess the rules only apply for those you choose at your discretion.
And the rules often change.
So in conclusion folks you will need to decide who is being immature and ignorant.
Michael has told my friend and brother in the Lord Bud Press to “bleep off” after Bud made a appeal to Richard Abanes to keep his word to Bud after Richard asked Bud for information on Ken Blanchard.
Yup that was real mature.
Does Michael sound like he uses’s biblical logic and discernment?
Or does Michael use Oprah Winfrey Logic and Discernment?
As for my brothers and sisters in the Lord in  discernement ministries I know the truth will always defend itself.
peace
Tim Wirth
Here are some more interesting links on what Michael bought up in his article
http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/1220
http://www.timenloe.net/wordpress/?p=416
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2065/is_n3_v48/ai_18709945
Also some other links that give a background to contemplative proponents and its origins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Mysticism_in_Ancient_Africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Fathers
And this is also where I think this all could be going
http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Buddhism_to_Orthodoxy.htm
All this is not really new to Christianity its just a lie repackaged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
Im done now
Peace
Tim
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

 

 

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Rick Warrens mentor C. Peter Wagner commissioned Todd Bentley for the Prophetic and Apostolic ministry.

Rick Warren wrote his doctoral dissertation at Fuller Seminary on his church growth ideas.

 His mentor was C. Peter Wagner!

 Here is a copy of the FirstSearch Dissertations Abstracts listing:

——————————————————————————–
Title: NEW CHURCHES FOR A NEW GENERATION: CHURCH PLANTING TO REACH BABY BOOMERS. A CASE STUDY: THE SADDLEBACK VALLEY COMMUNITY CHURCH (CALIFORNIA)
Author(s): WARREN, RICHARD DUANE
Degree: D.MIN.
Year: 1993
Pages: 00413
Institution: FULLER THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY, DOCTOR OF MINISTRY PROGRAM; 0790
Advisor: Mentor: C. PETER WAGNER
Source: DAI, 54, no. 03A, (1993): 0967
Abstract: One out of every three Americans alive today was born during the eighteen year period between 1947 and 1964. These 74,000,000 adults are the Baby Boom Generation. Today the youngest of the Baby Boomers is 24 and the oldest is 41 years old. In addition to being the largest generation of Americans, Baby Boomers are unique in their attitudes, values, and lifestyles. There are significant cultural differences between the Baby Boomer and the generations that both precede and follow them.
A People magazine survey found that only 11% of Baby Boomers regularly attend church. The basic argument of this dissertation is that most Baby Boomers will never be reached by traditional churches. We must establish new churches to reach this new generation of Americans. It will require new churches that understand the Baby Boom mindset and are intentionally designed to meet their needs, tastes, and interests.

During the past thirteen years, I have been researching, testing, and implementing principles and programs to reach Baby Boomers. I began the Saddleback Valley Community Church in January, 1980 in my home with my wife and the first family I met when I moved to the area. My target was to reach Baby Boomers. Today, the church averages about 6,000 in attendance. Over 50% of the members are Baby Boomers and nearly 70% were saved and baptized at the church.

Our church has sponsored 20 daughter churches since it began. In each of these new churches we have used the same strategy with good results. I believe the strategy we’re developing at Saddleback is reproducible in other new church starts.

SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: RELIGION, CLERGY
EDUCATION, RELIGIOUS
THEOLOGY
Accession No: AAG9320131
Database: Dissertations
source  http://op.50megs.com/ditc/addendumNAR.html
Saddleback Church promotes and endorses C. Peter Wagners book “Your Spiritual Gifts can help your church grow” here on saddlebacks website as part of there SHAPE class 301
here

http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/ministry/images/discoverytool.pdf

Warren did his D.MIN. in 1993 under Peter Wagner at Fuller NEW CHURCHES FOR A NEW GENERATION: CHURCH PLANTING TO REACH BABY BOOMERS. A CASE STUDY: THE SADDLEBACK VALLEY COMMUNITY CHURCH (California). In it he wrote “We must establish new churches to reach this new generation of Americans. It will require new churches that understand the Baby Boom mindset and are intentionally designed to meet their needs, tastes, and interests.”

Ministry Advantage at Fuller features articles from various “Christian leaders” Warren is listed among others like Ted Haggard, Jack Hayford, Bill Hybels, Peter Wagner, John Wimber etc. (http://www.fuller.edu/cll/ce/ma_writers.html)

All this means Fuller sees him as being in agreement with these men and what they are teaching. Peter Wagner who taught at Fuller optimized his vision of church growth with executing a new Church government, ie. new apostles and prophets laying a new foundation for today (ICA).

Peter Wagner, is the Founder and President of the American Society For Church Growth (ASCG). Rick Warren is a member of the American Society For Church Growth (ASCG) which is located at Fuller Theological Seminary. http://www.ascg.org/links.htm Saddleback Valley Community Church.

Rick Warren, Founding Pastor (ASCG member at large) is found alongside many names which includes Global Harvest Ministries of C. Peter Wagner, Founder, President (the ASCG Founding President); The World Prayer Center C. Peter Wagner, Co-founder.

“Saddleback Community Church senior pastor Rick Warren is on Mission America’s Facilitation Committee [http://www.missionamerica.org/leaders.html 1997].

A person does not become part of a board unless they are in agreement with the doctrines and philosophy of ministry of those who are part of the board.

Source http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac23.htm
Should all this surprise us?
Of course not.
Rick Warren himself states “”I see absolutely zero reason in separating my fellowship from anybody,” he said.

source

 http://www.biblicalrecorder.org/content/news/2005/7_28_2005/ne280705warren.shtml
And Warren has proved this time and time again with his associations with false teachers like Paul Yonggi Cho, Ken Copeland, Benny Hinn and the like.
Warren even spoke at the Azuza Street Centinnel. Warren continuely associates with new age sympathizers like Ken Blanchard and new ager Len Sweet.
False apostles and prophets like C Peter Wagner and his bunch.
More on this here

http://www.evangelicalnews.org/indiv_pr.php?pr_id=5779

and here

http://www.byron-harvey.com/2006/04/25/azusa-street-none-dare-call-it-heresy/

as well as here-

http://www.cephas-library.com/purposedriven/purposedriven_communication_between_j.sundquist_and_aog_k.burtram_and_g.felton.html

Here is the video of Rick Warrens mentor C. Peter Wagner commissioning false revival minister Todd Bentley.
People have asked me why I have linked Warren with Bentley.
Fair question its because they have in common a mentor who they both gleaned from in C. Peter Wagner.
How much poison does it take to kill my friends?
Here is the video

Peace
Tim
More to come Im sure

A readers comments

June 24, 2008

This comment was so well thought out and good I decided to post it as a article for all to see. This was taken from my other blog The No Goofy Zone Discernment Ministry. http://simplyagape.blogspot.com/

Its amazing to me that the fans and followers of guys like Rick Warren, Bill Hybels and Robert Schuller and Richard Abanes can’t see the truth explained in this comment. And these fans include pastors such as the disgruntled Calvary Chapel bunch over at Phoenix Preacher.  This isnt about hating Rick Warren or anything like that. We can however hate the methods Warren has used to effectively gut the church. But you know the fault cant go entirely on Ricks lap. You have to have people who buy into Ricks unbiblical methods.

But the Bible plainly states that there would come a time that people would have buy in with Rick Warren, Bill Hybels and Robert Schuller.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

The Bible also speak about a great falling away and I believe we see that with some such as Richard Abanes and his fans. There are clearly two different camps at work here folks and they cant both be right. You will have to decide who is telling the truth.

The Great Falling Away is mentioned in 2 Thess 2:3-12

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Heed those words. If you think what I am saying is not of God reject it totally. If you think what Richard Abanes is stating is not of God I urge you to reject that as well. Abanes and myself are diametrically opposed. We are not in the same camp (more to come on this) even though Richard has stated publicly that he believes in the essentials of the Christian faith which I agree with as well. Someone is not telling the truth. I urge you to check scripture and see if what I am saying (or anyone else) is the truth. Tim

Here are the comments-

It’s a depressing statistic. A majority of Western churches do not see a single addition through conversion in a typical year. So to try and turn things round many are rejecting traditional methods of evangelism and adopting a new ‘church growth’ model. Market research has convinced them that unbelievers stay away from church not because they reject Christ, but because they reject the church’s boring presentation of Christ. There’s no need to change the product – just the packaging – and the crowds will come flocking back.

 

The new packaging is all about replacement. A ‘stage’ with a moveable Perspex lectern replaces the old wooden pulpit. PowerPoint graphics replace the hymn books. A rock band replaces the organ. A casually dressed and jovial audience replaces the reverent congregation. A charming minister in a t-shirt and jeans replaces the suited ‘preacher’. Fun replaces holiness as the tone of the service. Loud music, side-splitting drama, multimedia presentations and a humorous ‘talk’ replace hymn singing and preaching. But, we’re confidently assured, the message remains the same.

Judging by numbers alone the new model has certainly proved a success. Prominent ‘church growth’ pastors like Robert Schuller (Crystal Cathedral, LA), Rick Warren (Saddleback Church, California), Bill Hybels (Willow Creek Church, Chicago) and Joel Osteen (Lakewood Church, Houston) attract thousands to their churches each Sunday. Though a majority of this ‘growth’ occurs by transfer rather than ‘conversion’, multitudes of other churches have adopted this model and have seen their congregations rocket numerically. Small wonder anyone questioning the movement is told, “Never criticise what God is blessing.”1 Truth never stood a chance against success.

 

How widespread is this new phenomenon? Consider this fact; over 400,000 pastors from 162 countries have been trained under Rick Warren’s church growth seminar material alone. (Warren calls his philosophy a “stealth movement flying beneath the radar that’s changing literally thousands of churches around the world ”). His book The Purpose Driven Church, which espouses this new philosophy, has sold over 1 million copies in 20 languages and is a standard textbook in hundreds of Bible Colleges. Yet despite the incredible popularity of Rick Warren and others like him, there are numerous problems with the church growth movement, starting with its history.

 

Problem 1 — The Origin and History of the Movement

 

The father of the church growth movement was the relatively unknown Donald McGavran. His best known student and successor at the Fuller School of World Mission in California was C. Peter Wagner, a founding member of the Lausanne Committee on World Evangelization. Wagner, a close friend of the late John Wimber (Vineyard), calls himself an apostle and is one of the world’s leading promoters of charismatic ‘signs and wonders’. From Fuller Seminary the church growth philosophy spread worldwide.

 

The first pastor to ‘make it big’ using modern church growth techniques was Robert Schuller. “An indisputed fact is that I am the founder, really, of the church-growth movement in this country…I advocated and launched what has become known as the marketing approach in Christianity.”2 How did he do it? “The secret of winning unchurched people into the church is really quite simple. Find out what would impress the nonchurchedin your community [then give it to them].”2 Yet Schuller is a false teacher of huge proportions. An unashamed universalist, he rejects Jesus as the only way to heaven. He states that making people aware of their lost and sinful condition is the very worst thing a preacher can do. As for the new birth, to Schullerit simply means changing from a negativeto a positive self-image.

 

Schuller’s landmark 1975 book Your Church Has Real Possibilities impressed Warren and Hybles who both visited Schuller to learn more. Hybels called his first meeting with Schuller a “divine encounter.”3 Kay Warren, Rick’s wife, said that Schullerhad a “profound influence” on Rick, who was “captivated by his positive appeal to unbelievers.”4 Warren has since shared the platform at several of Schuller’s leadership conferences and an endorsement by Schuller appears at the beginning of Warren’s book The Purpose Driven Church: “I’m praying that every pastor will read this book…Rick Warren is the one all of us should listen to and learn from.” Today Warren, Hybels and Schuller all operate their churches on the same market-driven principles.

 

Problem 2 — The Business-Church Marriage

 

The second major problem with the church growth movement is its love-affair with the business world. Warren, who partners with marketing agencies like CMS in Covina, California, a company that helps giants like Isuzu Motors and Quaker Oats “grow their businesses,”5 follows the advice of secular business guru Peter Drucker, with whom he has engaged in a bi-annual consultation for 20 years. The focus of Drucker’s recent consulting has been to teach churches and charities to behave more like corporations and Warren has adapted many of his ideas.6 For instance, the Drucker Foundation has a ‘Self-Assessment Tool’ for business leaders. Warren has a ‘Health Assessment Tool’ for readers of his Purpose Driven Life. Anyone familiar with the ideas promoted in business books will easily spot their cloned ‘Christian’ versions all through Warren’s writings. Forbes Magazine publisher, Rich Karlgaard said of The Purpose Driven Church, “This is one of the greatest entrepreneurial books I’ve ever read, and if you merely substitute the word ‘business’ for ‘church’, it’s just a terrific guide that can be taken to a secular and business audience.”7 Bob Buford, founder of the Leadership Network in Dallas, Texas, has spent over 20 years integrating Drucker’s business ideas into churches. Another friend of Warren and Hybels, Buford calls himself “the legs for his [Drucker’s] brain.”8

 

Compare all of this to Paul’s pivotal message to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20. He mentions nothing about marketing, growing or adapting. Instead he warns them to teach the whole counsel of God, to beware of false teachers and to preach the gospel of faith and repentance – which introduces the third major problem in the church growth movement, the corruption of the gospel message.

 

Problem 3 — The Dumbing Down of the Message

 

Church growth advocate Lee Strobel recommends reaching ‘un-churched Harry and Mary’ by starting with their ‘felt needs’. (Rather than with righteousness, self-control and judgment to come as Paul did with Felix in Acts 24). Thus “If you discover that unchurchedHarry suffers from a sagging self-esteem…you can tell him how your own self-esteem has soared ever since you learned how much you matter to God.”9 Or if he’s a thrill seeker tell him there’s “nothing more exciting, more challenging and more adventure packed than living as a devoted follower of Jesus Christ.”10 In other words, discover what a sinner wants out of life and give it to him ‘in Jesus’. In a chapter in The Purpose Driven Church entitled ‘How Jesus Attracted Crowds’, Rick Warren states: “The most likely place to start is with the person’s felt needs…this was the approach Jesus used…A good salesman knows you always start with the customer’s needs, not the product.”11 In the previous chapter Warren claims, “Whenever Jesus encountered a person he’d begin with their hurts, needs, and interests.”12 Yet simply noting how the Lord dealt with Nicodemus, the rich young ruler, the Syrophenicianwoman and Levi, to name but a few, shows Warren’s selective exegesis to be very misleading.

 

Christians have always known that when witnessing to different types of individuals from diverse backgrounds it is useful to understand the presuppositions they bring to the table and adjust one’s approach accordingly. Clearly the Lord dealt with Nicodemus differently than with the woman at the well. Again, Paul addressed the Jews in Acts 13 differently to the Greeks on Mars Hill in Acts 17. So why all the fuss about Warren? Because Warren is not simply recommending that preachers bear their audience’s background in mind; he is advocating a total change in the technique, style and form of historical evangelical preaching, and he’ll even twist scripture to make his point. He favours a rendering of Col 4:5-6 which reads: “Be tactful to those who are not Christians…Talk to them agreeably and with a flavour of wit, and try to fit your answers to the needs of each one.”13 Yet the context of this passage is not about public preaching and the translation Warren favours is not in the least bit accurate to the original Greek text.

 

While no pastor would ever admit to watering down the gospel message, that is exactly what has resulted from preaching this kind of positive needs-orientated sermons that entertain and amuse. For instance, an evaluation of Hybels’ preaching reveals that in a typical month three out of four weekend messages are about God’s love. A mere 7% of messages mention God’s holiness. The truth of God’s wrath against mankind’s sin is virtually never heard.14 What isn’t preached is more revealing than what is.

 

Concluding their weak gospel presentations, many church growth preachers lead their audience in a model ‘sinner’s prayer’. Warren advises sinners that, “Real life begins by committing yourself completely to Jesus Christ. If you are not sure you havedone this, all you need to do is receive and believe…bow your head and quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity: ‘Jesus I believein you and I receive you.’ Go ahead. If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of God.”15 No conviction of sin, no repentance, no forsaking of the sinner’s way, no counting the cost – just ‘accept and receive’ and the job’s done. Do these false teachers actually understand the true need of the sinner? Clearly not, for sinful man’s first and greatest need is repentance (not self-esteem as Schuller teaches). Man needs salvation from sin, deliverance from wrath and cleansing from guilt. The ‘consumer’ is actually a rebellious unclean sinner who, far from being ‘always right’, is always wrong. He doesn’t feel his need for the ‘product’ because he is spiritually dead. He only thinks he loves God and wants a relationship with Jesus, but actually he knows nothing about his true sinfulness and God’s righteousness.

 

The true gospel is not about making people feel better about themselves, but about making people realise they are lost, guilty and perishing. It does not attempt to bring people to Christ to meet their felt needs – rather it proclaims forgiveness and justification to meet their real need if they will repent and trust alone in Christ. A product that exposes sin, condemns pride and strips away self-righteousness can never be ‘marketed’. It is foolishness to the lost (1 Cor 1:18). Yet the new gospel is being presented as an attractive item to the sinner because it liberates his self esteem, fills his emptiness, gives him an exciting life, meets his needs and heals his hurts.

 

In the false gospel of the church growth movement the sinner is told that Christ died for him because he is so valuable to God. But this is a denial of grace. There is nothing in us to merit God’s love. Again, the idea that the sinner is friendly towards God but just turned off by the church is a denial of human depravity. Man is an enemy of God, alienated in his mind by wicked works (Col 1:21). Yet the false gospel says, “You may not believe in God, but God believes in you and you need to believe in yourself.” (The Bible says that Jesus did not believe in His hearers, John 2:24).

 

Problem 4 — Employing a Worldly Approach

 

The fourth problem with the ‘purpose driven church’ is its creation of a worldly ethos within the four walls of ‘the sanctuary’ in order to make the church more appealing to the world. Apparently since unchurchedHarry has to dress smartly at the office all week, he insists on the casual look at weekends. To make him feel comfortable the saints must remove their respectful Sunday best and go for the casual or even the scruffy look. Then there’s the ‘music problem’. Unchurched Harry hates organs and choirs. A cappella singing makes him cringe. So, the music must be contemporary and loud. According to Warren, Saddleback exploded with growth after loud rock music made its entrance. People want to feel the music not just hear it.

 

Herding all the flock together three times a week for nothing more than hymn singing and Bible teaching doesn’t work anymore. Ministries, programmes and small groups must be introduced to meet people’s needs for counselling about poor self esteem, depression, infertility, singleness, weight loss, co-dependency, addictions and more.

 

According to Warren, providing the primary issues are in focus (Christ and His gospel) the secondary issues (the church model/methods) can be as varied as you like. What works (pragmatism) is all that matters. “I contend that when a church continues to use methods that no longer work, it is being unfaithful to Christ.”16 So just as Jesus ‘targeted’ the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Paul targeted the Gentiles and Peter targeted the Jews,17 at Saddleback Warren uses multiple venues to ‘target’ different markets. A jazz service for jazz lovers. A rock-n-roll service for rockers. Based on a mistranslation of Acts 5:42, Warren claims he’s following the apostles who provided different kinds of services in separate ‘courts’ of the temple.

 

Warren even claims that God enjoys rock music.18 “I reject the idea that music styles can be judged as either ‘good’ or ‘bad’…no particular style of music is ‘sacred’…There is no such thing as ‘Christian music’, only Christian lyrics.”19 Yet just as clearly as a march tune fits a military scene, jazz fits a night club scene and rock fits a festival scene, so there is a certain kind of sound that suits a prayer meeting – and it’s not the rock, rap and jazz sound that the purpose driven church has borrowed from the world. Music that has a corrupt origin, employs sensual rhythms and is accompanied by a fleshly breathy style of singing, with singers who scoop and slide from one note to another, is utterly unsuitable for the spiritual praise of God (Eph 5:19).20

 

Conclusion

 

At the root of the entire purpose driven church paradigm is a fatal misconception. As John MacArthur points out: “The notion that church meetings should be used to tantalize or attract non-Christians is a relatively recent development. Nothing like it is found in scripture; in fact, the apostle Paul spoke of unbelievers entering the assembly as an exceptional event (1 Cor 14:23).”21 In fact, the church at Jerusalem was so holy and God-fearing that nobody dared to join it (Acts 5:11). The New Testament preaching of Paul “kept back nothing” (Acts 20:20) and involved reproving, rebuking and exhorting with patience and doctrine, bearing in mind a future time when people would no longer “endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers and they will turn their ears away from the truth” (2 Tim 4:2-4). That day has surely come.

 

The first few decades of the church growth movement have clearly shown the naiveté of those who thought that the true gospel could survive the introduction of a marketing philosophy which says the customer is king. Does style affect substance? It actually does much more. The purpose driven style has completely subverted the true gospel message. Exposition has surrendered to entertainment, preaching to performances, doctrine to drama and theology to theatrics – and the fallout has been catastrophic.

 

Doctrine has been trivialised and expositionalpreaching abandoned, leading to the introduction of multitudes of false converts and shallow members. A former Willow Creek counsellor admitted “Willow Creek is a mile wide and one-half inch deep.”22 Those who grieve to see their churches adopt this model have been marginalized. Separation from sin, worldliness, false doctrine and false churches has been deeply compromised. Speaking of his church members an unconcerned Warren states, “Are there unrepentant pagans mixed into Saddleback’s crowd of 10,000? Without a doubt…That’s okay. Jesus said…Don’t worry about the tares…”23 When George Barna surveyed Willow Creek’s weekend participants he found that while 91% stated that their highest value was having a deep personal relationship with God, of this same group 25% of singles, 38% of single parents and 41% of divorced individuals “admitted to having illicit sexual relationships in the last 6 months.”24

 

The answer to this movement is to abandon it altogether and return to biblical truth, biblical living, biblical preaching and biblical church principles. The idea that these new ‘purpose driven’ methods will restore the power of God in our midst is a red herring. Warren might just as well say that if only instead of being a preacher of righteousness (2 Pet 2:5) Noah had done some simple market research and built a ‘purpose driven ark’, more than eight people would have come aboard. When holy living, Spirit empowered preaching, loving unity and faithfulness to truth doesn’t seem to bring ‘results’, turning to the new methods advocated by Warren will only spell disaster. There will be results – but all of the wrong kind. A generation ago A.W. Tozer wisely said, “One of the most popular current errors, and the one out of which springs most of the noisy, blustering religious activity in evangelical circles, is the notion that as times change the church must change with them.” Since faithfulness to God’s word, as opposed to what evangelicalism calls success, will be the standard of reward at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor 2:4-5), obedience to the command to preach and teach, without trimming our sail to the wind of the world, is the most pressing need of the hour.

12:22 PM

What Rick Warren and his followers disassociate and distance themselves from are the chaos the methods they teach cause in churches.

 These are man-centered purpose driven methods that teach how to appease the flesh.
Keep in mind Rick Warrens root.
He went around and asked the unsaved what they wanted in a church.
And then they served it up.
Again-Warren sought the council of the unsaved (not scripture) what they wanted in a church.
The unsaved are fickle so the ante is always raised up a notch when they get bored.
That is why Rick Warren is contributing to a great deception that will add to the one world religion that is even now forming.
I dont mean to sound sensationalistic but the Bible predicted this time will come.
Rick Warren and purpose driven as well as is very cult like thats why churches are destroyed from the inside.
Willow Creek cant quite make up its mind what it wants to do even after finding out their methods failed.
Willow Creek now is headed toward the new spirituality which is another tangent just like the Emergent Church which is helping form this one world religion.
The same goes for Todd Benteley and his false revival.
Here are some comments from Lighthouse Trails blog that need to be heard.
Peace
Tim
Source: Editors at Lighthouse Trails

LTRP Note: These two comments we received today in our “Guestbook” say so much about what many believers are going through today in their churches.

Letter #1
At first I ignored things I saw on here, things people were linking. I decided to come again to this site after my husband and I just began to feel we weren’t being fed in our church. We had experienced many changes from the church “catch phrase” including transform to every single ministry being revamped (except maybe the music ministry which had already been somewhat modern to begin with). Our church is very missional, and that seemed so right to me. I wanted my children to grow up with a heart for people around the world, the idea of going and making disciples seems good and I do not think it is wrong. However, I am now seeing that we are not really as much about pure missions as we are about following this plan and meeting the needs of “emergent youth.”

When I really began to search things out, I found that most all of our books or curriculum for adults/youth/children is from Saddleback or WillowCreek. Our pastors are following the likes of Dallas Willard. I began looking at sermon notes and we have the lessons on the global PEACE plan and transformation. We’ve not been openly promoting contemplative prayer yet, but I believe it’s because the pastors realize the church hasn’t gotten far enough into it to swallow that one whole yet.

The hardest thing is now sitting in church when there is a nugget of truth, and realizing that it’s not enough. I felt this Sunday while we were singing about Satan being vanquished and Jesus being King that I was in a room full of wonderful people who were just as I had been a few months earlier, a room full of people following our pastors right wherever Rick Warren or Dallas Willard prescribe. I cried, I prayed for their eyes to be opened. I prayed for my pastors. We have to decide if we will stay and try to educate, or if our children will be at risk if we do stay. We love those people, you know. We really do. They have been our family for several years, and we’re not church hoppers, we’re loyal. Well, first off we have to be loyal to the King, and so now we wait on the Lord to see what He would have us to do. My heart is broken.

DMHL
Midwest

Letter #2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This is in reference to the post below (see Guestbook – entry from 6/22/08) – about worshipping God and not the Bible. 🙂

I am so interested in this site. I went to a church for 4 years where they were starting to infiltrate with The Purpose Drivin Church methods – we went to Saddleback on 3 different occasions to conferences. I went to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa…and I was quite used to that ‘non-denominational’ way . . . and I still am.

As time wore on, my Dad and I were getting quite skeptical of this Purpose Driven idea….we believed that as Christians, our purpose is to spread the Gospel – not growing your church into a mega-chapel where money flows, and what not. So, yes, as Christians, we do have a purpose – and our purpose should be getting out the good news of Jesus Christ – not what Rick Warren or any of his followers are exuding.

As we looked back, upon our practical excommunication from our old church, we see that it was run very much like that of Jim Jones and the Jonestown /Guyana Tragedy….from the late 70s. It was quite bizarre – the similarities.

We are in a Calvary Chapel now….and we’ve been there for 10 years. We have never been steered into building the church and numbers, and such….our church has grown because people are hungry for the gospel.

God bless you all for proclaiming the truths and for proclaiming Jesus Christ! See you in Heaven! 🙂

David
Southern California

This article or excerpt was posted on June 23, 2008@ 6:22 pm .

From: http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com
Category: * New Evangelicalism

Coming soon a new article-“The Two Camps That Are now Forming”

Stay tuned for the truth

Peace

Tim Wirth

 

Richard Abanes in his Blanchard Bashers article states this.

“First, Ken Blanchard is no New Ager”

Then later on the same page Richard states this-

 

2008 Update

NOTE & WARNING:Concerns over Ken Blanchard’s doctrinal views, spiritual discernment, and personal/professional associations with false teachers (most notably, New Agers) have continued to be voiced by many individuals. And, much to my disappointment and surprise, I have received information (c. March 24, 2008) that seems to suggest, at least at first glance, that there might indeed be an ongoing serious problem with Blanchard’s ability to discern biblically sound individuals from persons who are known enemies of the cross of Christ. Therefore, in the coming months, I plan on carefully reviewing the material I have obtained. My findings will be made  public after a careful examination of these documents. Until then, I would urge Christians to be extremely cautious when it comes to Blanchard’s teachings, being especially mindful of any books, teaching tapes, videos, individuals, or organizations being supported by his name (either through an endorsement, foreword, or review). My hope is to complete ASAP a thorough investigation of the situation, including a look into what has transpired over the last few years between Blanchard and Watchman Fellowship (i.e., the ministry that was supposed to be overseeing his spiritual growth in the area of discernment and doctrine).

source http://abanes.com/LTRP_PressRelease.html

This is brand new  from Lighthouse Trails here is the link to read the rest of the article

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=1125&more=1&c=1

Here is a excert from this article

 

And now for the twist: To make a long story short, in 2005 Lighthouse Trails issued a report titled “Rick Warren teams up with New Age guru Ken Blanchard”. Our report, while fully documented and accurate, brought on a barrage of response from Rick Warren and Saddleback, including a letter from Warren to Lighthouse Trailsdenying the connection, phone calls and emails from two Saddleback leaders, numerous letters sent out from Saddleback calling Lighthouse Trails evil and liars, and an accusation from Saddleback, saying that Federal agents believed that Lighthouse Trails may have broken into their computer server. In addition, there was an effort to discredit George Mair, a biographer who wrote a testament of praise in his book A Life with Purpose but who inadvertently connected Rick Warren with Ken Blanchard.

All this to say that Rick Warren and Ken Blanchard had made plans to work together to implement the global P.E.A.C.E. Plan (read transcript).But since our report and since Warren denied the connection, little has publicly been done between Blanchard and Warren.(1) But that has changed. On the New York City Leadership’s “National Advisory Board,”which incidentally is a brand new organization (according to the phone call we had this week), sits, among others, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, and Ken Blanchard.(2) We were told that Blanchard’s role is to help develop programming for area pastors and leaders. For those who are not familiar with Blanchard’s promotion of eastern style mysticism and numerous New Age authors, we encourage you to study the matter on our research site, in which we provide solid documentation. Blanchard, who claims to have become a Christian in the mid-eighties, has even up until recently shown a propensity toward mysticism, and his involvement with a process called the Hoffman Quadrinity Process (a New Age belief system), leaves no doubt as to where Blanchard stands on these spiritual matters. Of the Hoffman Process, Blanchard says, “The Hoffman Process brings forth spiritual leadership in a person” and “It made my spirituality come alive.”2In a 2007 book titled Little Wave and Old Swell, a book that is “Inspired by Hindu Swami Paramahansa Yogananada,” Blanchard has written a glowing foreword! end of excerpt

Read more on Ken Blanchard and Little Wave and Old Swell here http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=1039&more=1&c=1

Here is Warrens own endorsement of his comrades in arms From the New York City Leadership Center website.

The heartbeat of the Center’s vision is to train regional leaders, collaborate globally with church movements, and to replicate this vision in other cities around the world.  For this reason, I’m honored to be a member of the National Advisory Team along with other respected colleagues.”

Rev. Rick Warren, Senior Pastor

Saddleback Church – Lake Forest, CA

 

 source http://nycleadership.com/Default.aspx

 

I had wondered why Richard Abanes put up a confusing ,cleverly worded warning. Indeed which Richard has now pretty much swept under the carpet in spite of the fact that he contacted Bud Press by email to ask Bud for more information on Ken Blanchard. Richard has now since blown off Bud on various websites when Bud asked Richard to follow up and keep his word about doing a follow up on Blanchard.

Here was a part of the exchange-

Hi Richard:

Speaking of going on to other things, now that your new book is done, and the “6-8″ week deadline you established is past, are you going to keep your word and make your findings on Ken Blanchard public? If so, when?

In Christian love,
Bud

Bud,

You are not my father. You are not my mother. You are not my God. You are not my publisher. And you are not my parole officer. What on earth makes you think I’m supposed to be reporting to you and justifying my time management and life activities to you?

Please stop HARASSING me — and that’s what your doing now with your incessant emails & online posts.

I told you that I’d get to Ken Blanchard and make my report when possible, given my responsibilities. I’ve already begun the research, and have even posted a caution about him to persons visiting my website.

My book on Eckhart Tolle is finished, but my work on the project is not complete, contrary to your pestering me about my work being done and asking me if I’m going to keep my word (which has more than one not-so-subtle implication).

My 6-8 week estimation did not take into account more aspects of the book’s publication that have come up – and TBH, it’s none of your business what those added responsibilities are based on requests from the publisher.

So just go ahead and whatever you want to say about me on your website. Whatever I do or say won’t make a difference anyway. So, please just feel free invent some tantalizing conspiratorial scenario — here I’ll help.

Ken Blanchard, who is really my Uncle Kenny, called and pleaded with me to not expose his true New Age agenda, which is to teach the church how to Lead Like A New Age Jesus. And to bribe me, he deposited $30 million into a Swiss Bank account with the last 3 numbers being 666. I told him that this would be acceptable, and that I’d never say anything negative about his book endorsements or associations with new Agers as long as I not only got the cash, but also was promoted to the Regional Director of the Illuminati, complete with my own special “I” embroidered blazer, a coat of arms pin, and a direct special hot phone line to the Vatican.

There you go, Bud. A whole new article for you. -) You’re welcome. I wish you the best. And please, please, stop wasting your time emailing me — you’re most definitely top-listed now on my spam filter.

R. Abanes

Dear Richard:

I can’t believe you are saying this. I am amazed that you aren’t telling the whole story.

On March 11, 2008, I provided you with documented information on Ken Blanchard and his participation in the New Age Movement. In turn, you wrote and requested additional information, and said that if Ken Blanchard had not grown in discernment in two years, you would make your findings public–and in private to Rick Warren.

The information I provided proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Ken Blanchard is deeply involved in the New Age Movement. The list on your website demonstrates only a fraction of Blanchard’s participation in the New Age ( http://abanes.com/blanchardproblems.html ).

As a result of the information I provided (at your request), on March 31 you posted a “NOTE & WARNING” on Ken Blanchard on your website at http://abanes.com/LTRP_PressRelease.html .

But in one particular e-mail, you wrote and said “DO NOT CONTACT ME AGAIN,” then wrote again days later and said, “I am starting to look at Blanchard today,” and requested further information.

I fully understand the responsibilities with your new book. No problem. But since March 11, those responsibilities didn’t stop you from spending an incredible amount of time posting lengthy messages in various blogs and dealing with New Agers on “YouTube.” Many of your blog posts had nothing to do with your new book.

Certainly, while you are entitled to your own opinion, please keep in mind that if you refuse to provide a statement on New Ager Ken Blanchard, your new book exposing New Ager Eckhart Tolle may not sit well with the body of Christ, your publisher, and online and walk-in Christian bookstores.

Ken Blanchard claims to be a “Christian,” but his involvement with and participation in the New Age Movement is dangerous to the spiritual welfare of the believer, as well as those searching for the real Jesus Christ.

Richard, I sent the information to you on Ken Blanchard out of love and concern for both you and your readers. I offered to talk with you over the phone, but you declined. I wasn’t “HARASSING” you, and you know that. I simply fulfilled your requests for information.

And for the record, I am not out to destroy you or your reputation. You are doing enough of that on your own. I will, however, hold you accountable, as the Lord leads.

With that in mind, your readers deserve to know the whole story on Ken Blanchard. You have my permission to link to or post any and all of my articles concerning Ken Blanchard on your website and blogs.

Furthermore and for the record, you have my permission to post ALL of our e-mail correspondence on your website and blogs–in their entirety, please.

Tell the whole story, Richard. Give your readers the opportunity to make-up their own minds. The documentation stands on its own. Truth will stand up to intensive investigation.

Finally, Richard, words mean a lot to me, and I am not afraid to hold people accountable for the things they say and do. A man’s word is his bond. I will honor your request. But at the same time, I will continue to remember you in my prayers. I will not shut the door on you. Should you have a change of heart, please feel free to contact me anytime, night or day.

In Christian love,
Bud Press, Director
Christian Research Service
Jude 3

Write what you want, Bud. Just write whatever it is you want to write. It doesn’t matter — to anyone of any importance.

Your emails will not be answered. Conversation over. I’ve already given you a good lead off for a new article (see above).

RA

End of comments

The interesting thing is that Richard asked Bud Press for current information on Ken Blanchard in a email to Bud.

Bud supplied Richard with current information as Richard had requested.

Does Warren’s continued association with new age symaphizer Ken Blanchard have anything to do with this?

You decide.

Again I ask the question if Richard Abanes a reliable source of information?

Peace

Tim Wirth

For more information on this please click on the following links

http://www.christianresearchservice.com/KenBlanchard9.htm

http://www.christianresearchservice.com/LetterstoRichardAbanes.htm

http://www.christianresearchservice.com/LetterstoRichardAbanes3.htm

http://www.christianresearchservice.com/KenBlanchard10.htm

 

 

 

Well I can see from Richard Abanes blog that he still continues to duck and dodge the points I bought up in my article “Is Richard Abanes a reliable source of information?”. Instead Richard as usual uses spin and makes his long list of what he has done and his endorsements. With a couple of his fans coming in again to play the hate card in their comments. I do not hate Richard Abanes. I however do not believe Richard Abanes is a good or reliable source of biblical based information.

 Funny I don’t see any folk on this list lining up to endorse any of Richards current material.

Richard writes in his article-“You see none of these “discerners” being published by any major publishing houses. You see none of them writing for major Christian magazines. Instead, because they are not accepted by the legitimate world, they have created for themselves a world of their own where they can say/do anything they want to say/do.”

This my friends is fruit of purpose driven and Rick Warren. This is the flesh and man-centered ego speaking here. Richard really doesnt get it. If he did he would address my article point by point. But again Richard is notorious for not answering the hard question’s. And there is a reason for that.

Again lets answer Richards long list of accolades and ego centered unbiblical criteria with scripture.

Acts 4:13 “13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.

As far as Major Publishing houses it common knowledge that many Christian companies in the book and music industry are owned by secular companies. Do secular companies have godly discernment?  No of course not they are looking for money period.

Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, and Benny Hinn all sell a ton of books.

Are they a reliable source of information?

Hmm, uhh, err, I guess sales would say so.

Get my point at where Abanes is going with this and what kind of spirit is involved here?

 

 

Here is what my brother in the Lord Mike Oppenheimer from Let Us Reason website (a very reliable biblically based source of information) had to say about my article and Richard Abanes’s comments.

Mike’s comments-

Greetings  Tim ,
 heres my dimes worth of wisdom on this matter
 
Abanes stated- There is NO other faiths at all? I’d be interesting in hearing exactly what Wirth labels other religious systems, none of which are based on scientific fact. No other faiths in the world exist? I can’t even understand the point he’s making – probably because it makes no sense.
 
– Murder is wrong
 

one does not have to be religious to come to this conclusion- a humanist or even an atheist can hold this belief.


Interesting.

– There is life after this life
 
 pagans believe this, nearly all religions hold to some kind of teaching about this. this does not prove they have truth because the Bible teaches that this concept is part of mankind’s conscience.  again this proves little, if anything on the point trying to be made of “other faiths”.
 

 

– A divine Creator exists
 
 this is the same answer as previous- I might add that ones creator can be a she, nature, a force, an it.  Again this proves nothing by itself unless it is in agreement with the faith that was delivered to the saints  and is the same as what is written.
 
– People shouldn’t steal or commit adultery
 
 this is God’s law written in all mankind’s heart by their conscience, again, one does not have to believe in God to hold to this. they can even believe in different gods or multiple gods.
 
– We should seek to live peacefully with others
 
 same as the other points
– People should treat others how they wish to be treated
 
same point- it is common courteously as a human being to act this way- however I have heard this argument ad naseum and would like to see more specific quotes on this- what religion actually says this? and would the motivation be love?
 
We find in history nearly All cultures believe in the flood but they are quite varied in the details- what does this prove- they all cannot be right. can they prove the details of the bible are true from their varied stories that may conflict? 
 

Abanes stated- there is NO other faiths at all? I’d be interesting in hearing exactly what Wirth labels other religious systems, none of which are based on scientific fact. No other faiths in the world exist? I can’t even understand the point he’s making – probably because it makes no sense.
 

 getting back to the point of Tim wirth- he is holding a biblical position that, “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints”Jude 3.

Not to everyone of every religion- they do not have “true faith in God”,  we may mistakenly call them faiths because of influences from ecumenism. But the fact is , they are what abanes stated other religious systems. Religions without relationship, therefore faith is not part of them because the Biblical definition of faith means to believe and trust in the true and living God. it is faith that saves us from our sins, no other religion addresses this only Jesus Christ did.

 
 
 
In Christ service,
Mike
www.letusreason.org

 

My friend and brother in the Lord John Baker commented on Abanes website on Richards rant about my most recent article about him. I cant call Abanes post a rebuttel because Richard didnt address anything I had to say in my article. Its interesting that Richard allowed John to comment. It is also interesting to note that Richard edited John’s comment before he posted it. He didnt edit what John had to say but the scripture John quoted.

 Now Abanes has a right to moderate as he see’s fit on his blog. I no longer allow comments here from Richard and thats my right as well.

Here is Johns quote as it stands today on Richards blog

 

“I have not intention of getting into an extended exchange with Mr. Abanes.

So I will comment once and leave it at that.

First off you operate on a very deceptive double standard.

You become very upset that valid and needful Discernment Ministries bring to light the very serious and real apostasy and active denial of many of the fundamentals of the Christian Faith by Rick Warren and yourself, and also the very valid and needful bringing to light of yours and Rick Warren’s defence of others who openly adhere to and promote Anti-Christ Ideologies.

You try to call them Slanderers & Divisive “Sinners”, however Mr. Abanes again you use deception in defining them as such. The deception is this: What you define as the “Body od Christ” is not Biblical. The real “Body of Christ” is a spiritual body and a spiritual unity. It is NOT a Visible Body of people who by simply calling themselves “Christian” become part of that real “body of Christ”.

A person is also not part of that real “Body of Christ” simply because they SAY they hold to the fundamentals of the Christian Faith. As you and Rick Warren Do, while at the same time what you do on a daily basis works to dismantle, seriously corrupt, or make “of none affect” those fundamentals of the Christian Faith.

And here is an insight for you: Steering people to or emphasizing a Psychologically or intellect only based “Christian” faith is part of dismantling the Christian Faith.

It does not validate your position to roll out a list of names who support your views. What validates anyones position in regards to whether they are indeed following a true Christian Faith is two things: The adheranc of their beliefs and daily actions to the Word of God AND the Witness of the Holy Spirit.

I will leave you with this passage in the hope that your blind eyes may be opened:

John 3:1-21 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” …. [SNIP – poster quoted entire passage, please read at biblegateway.com]

. . . . to Believe in the Christian sense is not simply an affirmation to a set of principles. Belief in Christianity is an active word. And it is not activated by you! It is activated by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Your actions and words show that you do not have the indwelling of the Holy spirit which is THE Requirement to understand the Spiritual things of God.

If you do not have that indwelling then you are left with what you do and that is fallen fleshly intellectualism just like Nicodemus

God Bless,
John Baker

End of comment from Richards blog-Now here is Johns comments to me and his post as it was originally submitted on Richards blog-

Tim,

 

Sure go ahead, He posted the comment but took out most of the citation from John 3:1-21. Stating that if people wanted to read the entire passage they could go to biblegateway.com

 

I find that very telling, as the entire passage was a key part of my comment.

 

And I agree with you. Mr Abanes just doesn’t get it. And I believe it is because he has NOT been spiritually regenerated. He is an Intellectual (naturally minded) “Christian” therefore he cannot discern the things of the Spirit. Just as the Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:13-16:

 

These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.  But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.  But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

God Bless,

 

John

 Now here is John’s original post in its entirety

I left the comment below on Mr Abanes web Site and I am leaving it at that.

 

I have no intention of getting into an extended exchange with Mr. Abanes.

So I will comment once and leave it at that.

First off you operate on a very deceptive double standard.

You become very upset that valid and needful Discernment Ministries bring to light the very serious and real apostasy and active denial of many of the fundamentals of the Christian Faith by Rick Warren and yourself, and also the very valid and needful bringing to light of yours and Rick Warren’s defence of others who openly adhere to and promote Anti-Christ Ideologies.

You try to call them Slanderers & Divisive “Sinners”, however Mr. Abanes again you use deception in defining them as such. The deception is this: What you define as the “Body od Christ” is not Biblical. The real “Body of Christ” is a spiritual body and a spiritual unity. It is NOT a Visible Body of people who by simply calling themselves “Christian” become part of that real “body of Christ”.

A person is also not part of that real “Body of Christ” simply because they SAY they hold to the fundamentals of the Christian Faith. As you and Rick Warren Do, while at the same time what you do on a daily basis works to dismantle, seriously corrupt, or make “of none affect” those fundamentals of the Christian Faith.

And here is an insight for you: Steering people to or emphasizing a Psychologically or intellect only based “Christian” faith is part of dismantling the Christian Faith.

It does not validate your position to roll out a list of names who support your views. What validates anyones position in regards to whether they are indeed following a true Christian Faith is two things: The adheranc of their beliefs and daily actions to the Word of God AND the Witness of the Holy Spirit.

I will leave you with this passage in the hope that your blind eyes may be opened:

John 3:1-21

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

to Believe in the Christian sense is not simply an affirmation to a set of principles. Belief in Christianity is an active word. And it is not activated by you! It is activated by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Your actions and words show that you do not have the indwelling of the Holy spirit which is THE Requirement to understand the Spiritual things of God.

If you do not have that indwelling then you are left with what you do and that is fallen fleshly intellectualism just like Nicodemus

God Bless,

John Baker

 

I ran across this statement by Rick Warren in the context of his P.E.A.C.E. plan that he recently made at a “three-day Purpose Driven Network Summit last week hosted by his home church, Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif.”:

Most churches only think about their own church and their own community,” he told attendants, who represented 39 countries and 50 states. “But our mission is the global glory of God.” (Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Network Summit, 5/08, as cited in Rick Warren Launches Coalition to Combat Five ‘Global Giants’, by Katherine T. Phan, Christian Post Reporter, Mon, May. 26 2008 04:31 PM, http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080526/32537_Rick_Warren_Launches_Coalition_to_Combat_Five_’Global_Giants’.htm)

Warren has made this same accusation before.

Today, most local churches are sidelined and uninvolved when it comes to missions.  (Rick Warren’s letter on his web site regarding the P.E.A.C.E. plan, http://www.saddleback.com/home/todaystory.asp?id=6213)

This broad brushing type of statement goes to the root of the diaprax that Warren has been feeding to pastors and churches that get involved in his P.E.A.C.E. “purpose driven” sideshow.  Warren is attempting to co-opt the agenda of Christianity while clearly not understanding that many churches have been the backbone of change in the world and support of that change financially.  It is true that SOME churches have done almost nothing, but to make this kind of statement about “most” churches without documented facts to support that claim is simply part of the diaprax to vilify the old to bring in the new.

This is rich coming from Warrren’s whose own P.E.A.C.E plan is nothing more than disingenuous words.

Read the rest of the article here http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/tiredofthediaprax.html

Years ago a Christian friend of mine gave me a book titled “Harry Potter and the Bible” written by Richard Abanes. At first glance I thought the book was written withsome decent research done and scripture to back up what was stated. I was not familiar with the author Richard Abanes but was glad to see that someone who declared himself to be a Christian tackled this hot topic. Through the years though I have seen the down hill spiral this man seems to be headed.

I will just present some of Richards comments through the years and you will have to decide for yourself whether or not Richard Abanes is a reliable source of solid biblical based information.

Abanes declares himself to be a Christian apologist.

I see Richard as being a apologist for Rick Warren and Ricks own purpose driven form of Christianity.

This is where most of Richards time is spent on the Internet.

Not defending the Christian faith.

But defending Rick Warrens faith.

And this is proven by the mere fact that one can see the vast number of hours Richard spends all over the internet, not defending the truth but in fact defending Rick Warrens truth.

A person involved in Christian or Bible Apologetics is a defender of Christianity.

Does Richard Abanes still defend Christianity?

Or does Richard Abanes defend Rick Warrens way of Christianity, which is very often not  biblical based Christianity. In spit of the fact Warren does on occasion teach orthodox doctrine depending on the crowd Rick plays to.

The trouble with Richard is he basically lives in a world of his own making (from my point of view).

The rules often change and are based on Richards mood at the time.

Here is how Abanes determines if you are a Christian apologist or not.

From a blog comment Richard states “Joe,
I think you probably know me from the past. Let me say not ALL discernment ministries are bad — obviously. But something has transpired over the years with the advent of the Internet — i.e., a whole lot of people have taken it upon themselves to become so-called “watchmen” and “discerners” who have:
– no accountability,
– no training to speak of,
– no mentoring under established/respected apologists
– no apparent desire to do anything but condemn, attack, injure, destroy, and slander
These are the “discerners” abut which we are speaking at this blog. Not responsible, thoughtful, Christ-like, truth-honoring defenders of the faithwilling to approach issues with caution, gentleness, respect, integrity, and according to the principles laid out in 1 Cor. 13 for ALL that we do. These watchmen are unforgiving, always believe the worst, create caricatures of their targets, ignore evidence, and elevate to the level of scripture their own opinions on non-essential issues.

end of comment.

 And let me say look at how Richard Abanes deals with people he disagrees with on his website and all over the internet. This is just utter hypocrisy on the part of Richard Abanes. 1 Cor 13 is of course the chapter about love and we should love even our enemies but let me ask was Paul violating this chapter (he wrote through the Holy Spirit)? When he wrote  in Titus 1 10-16

10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. ”

Did Jude violate 1 Cor 13 when he stated (inspired by the Holy Spirit).  Jude 10-13

10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah   
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever”

Did Peter violate 1 Cor 13 when he stated (inspired by the Holy Spirit). 2 Peter 2:12-19

  
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 15They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the sonof Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.   
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness,(comment- listen to how Rick Warren talks in many article’s and in person) they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.”

Well I think you get my point. 

Lets break down Richards comments on who he thinks defenders of the faith are.

Point one. No accountability-

Im not sure what Abanes bases’s his statement’s on because Richard often speaks in broad brush general terms.

Most of the discernment ministries I know of go to church and are under the authority of a pastor.

Some may not go to church but are accountable to each other. And you have to admit that in the current state of the church in America its hard to find a good church since men such as Bill Hybels and mainly Rick Warren have been responsible for teaching methods that I believe have gutted and weakened the Body of Christ.

check these links

http://www.moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/objections_to_rick_warrens_teachings.htm
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/4-purpose-resisters.htm

 Point 2.no training to speak of

This of course a spiritual elitist point of view which shows Richards ego. I will simply answer this with God’s word.

Acts 4:13 “13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.

 Not to say that a education is a bad thing. The apostle Paul was obviously a well educated man, Luke was as well. And there are many pastors who have a education such as Bob Dewaay and John MacArthur who can rightly divide the word of God.

A formal education is just not a criteria that the Bible sets up for those involved in apologetics. You just need to be able to put aside your own agenda and rightly divide the scriptures.

 Can Richard rightly divide Gods Word?

Notice Richards comments about scripture I had quoted to him.

And speaking of Tim Wirth, here’s an interesting quote —
TIM WIRTH: Are there other faiths? Is there truthin other religions? . . . . There is no other faith’s or truth outside of Jesus Christ.
RA: There is NO other faiths at all? I’d be interesting in hearing exactly what Wirth labels other religious systems, none of which are based on scientific fact. No other faiths in the world exist? I can’t even understand the point he’s making – probably because it makes no sense.
And no truths at all exist in other religions? Hmmm, I wonder if Wirth considers these beliefs actual truths or not:
– Murder is wrong
– There is life after this life
– A divine Creator exists
– People shouldn’t steal or commit adultery
– We should seek to live peacefully with others
– People should treat others how they wish to be treated

Interesting.
RAbanes

Again Richard does not use scripture to back up his argument but his own intellect with seemingly very little thought put into his own statement.

Its alarming that Richard does not understand the point I made.

For clarification here is the  comment I made that Richard was referring to.

“John 14:6 ”

Does scripture teach that there is many faiths?

No it does not here is what the Bible says.

Eph4:5 ” one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Scripture does not recognize or affirm that their are any other faiths.

Is there truth outside of Christianity?

No here is what the Bible teaches.

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

This is the narrow way. There is no other faith’s or truth outside of Jesus Christ.”

Here is the link to the article “Are their other faiths? Is there truth in other religions.”

https://nogoofyzone.wordpress.com/2008/06/01/are-their-other-faiths-is-there-truth-in-other-religions/

 

And speak of statements that don’t make sense check this one out.

My heart breaks when I think about the golden opportunity that Warren Smithhadto equip so many church leaders to stand against what is happening now with Oprah and Eckhart Tolle — a real threat.

Warren Smith does take the golden opportunity to warn people about Oprah and Eckhart Tolle.

Here

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/08/discernment/3-27-oprah-eckhart.htm

and here

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/007/smith-oprah.htm

Information which Warren offers for free on the internet.

Its interesting also to take note that it seems that Richard does not see New Age sympathiser Ken Blanchard a real threat.

In Richard own article titled the Blanchard Bashers Richard gives confusing,contridicting information.

First telling the public that “First, Ken Blanchard is no New Ager ” .

And then in the same article put up a updated warning on Ken Blanchard that Richard has refused to follow up on since the warning was given.

Source http://abanes.com/LTRP_PressRelease.htmlIn

James 3:13-17 ” 

Heavenly Versus Demonic Wisdom
  
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. ” 

Point 3. no mentoring under established/respected apologists
Again Richard chooses to roll with a ungrounded relative statement.

My first point is where does the scriptures endorse this statement as a criteria for being a Christian apologist?

And who determines who is a established/respected apologist?

Richard?

The number of books or sales a individual sells these days?

Dont think so, because if this world is making them rich in a time of little discernment and ever growing deception I would not want to listen to what they have to say in general.

Again where is the scripture that backs this up?

There is none and thats why Richard does not often quote scripture in his comments.

There are two very seperate camps at work here folks.

Richards camp is very different than mine. 

Point 4. no apparent desire to do anything but condemn, attack, injure, destroy, and slander

Richard as a rule in my dealings with him basically plays the hate speech/ slander card whenever someone disagree’s with his point of view.

 

This card is also pulled out by cults and the homosexual camp when scripture is bought up to bear on their behavior/sin.

And this rule doesnt apply to Richard of course who uses’s some of the most vitrolic language on the internet in describing his critics. One only needs to see a Abanes run on a comment link on any website that Richard frequents to see countless examples of Richards loving nature.

In conclusion what I find most alarming about Richard Abanes is his joking that he is a tool of the antichrist. This is not new  at all folks Richard has been talking like this since around 2005 I first noticed this on Tim Challis website.

 

Where Richard stated ”

richard abanes
Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:10 pm
Post subject: truth”RKS: I can’t believe he’s getting this all for free! RA: Actually, I am being paid quite handsomely by the anti-Christ (sorry, I can’t reveal his name for obvious reasons), whom I contact on a regular basis through Peter Drucker. Blanchard launders the money for me using an anonymous bank account in the Cayman Islands that is guarded by elite Gurkha mercenaries from Tibet. Thanks to the new funds that are pouring in, I have almost finished building the tunnels underneath my seaside mansion, which is erected over my gorgeous temple to Dagon and Ashtoreth (ya know I gotta have some place to make all of those human sacrifices).
RA

P.S. Your’e more than welcome to visit me some time and we can talk about our differences. Oh, but um, just make sure you don’t tell anyone where you’re going that day. I mean, just for security purposes, that is. No need to let anyone know of your whereabouts.
From Challies.com at:
  
 

Here are some other quotes from Abanes-

R. Abanes
Ken Blanchard, who is really my Uncle Kenny, called and pleaded withme to not expose his true New Age agenda, which is to teach the church how to Lead Like A New Age Jesus. And to bribe me, he deposited $30 million into a Swiss Bank account withthelast 3 numbers being 666. I told him that this would be acceptable, and that I’d never say anything negative about his book endorsements or associations with new Agersaslong as I not only got the cash, but also was promoted to the Regional Director of the Illuminati, complete with my own special “I” embroidered blazer, a coat of arms pin, and a direct special hot phone line to the Vatican.

Yes, and please do tell Warren that I send my warmest greetings from the depths of my dungeon. And if he wants, I’ll give him a nice red cloak to match mine – the tastefully embroidered 666 on the back is very fashionable throughout the satanic underground. (Oh, and it has pockets.)
-)

No no no. M&M’s are so simple in their molecular structure that I can just conjure them up — kind of like the White Witch in The Chronicles of Narnia can make Turkish Delight! She’s so cool. I run a fan club for her.
RA

65 Richard AbanesNo Gravatar

appropriate for me =
end of Richards comment’s-
These kind of comments not only cross the biblical line about foolish jesting but are unique to Richard Abanes on the internet.
I dont see respected apoligist’s of any name making comments like that.
I”m not sure that Abanes believes in a literal Antichrist which the scripture’s both Old and New Testament warn and caution about.
If Richard does not believe in a literal antichrist it would greatly explain Richards alliance with Rick Warren who in many ways seem to be a archetype of the antichrist which would make Abanes Ricks false prophet.
And I am not calling Rick Warren the antichrist but I do believe Rick’s new age implications and efforts are contributing to the formation of a One World Religion.
Is this who you want to get serious information from during this time of great deception?
You will need to make up your own mind on this.
Is Richard Abanes a reliable source of information?
2 Thess 2:3-12-

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin  is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

 

From my brothers and sisters in the Lord Dave and Deb Dombrowski-

 

First of all, it is important to understand what the contemplative means by “maturity.” In Rick Warren’s first book, The Purpose Driven Church, he said he saw spiritual formation as God’s way of bringing “believers to full maturity.” He named Richard Foster and Dallas Willard as being key players in that process and said that the spiritual formation movement had a “valid message for the church” and gave “the body of Christ a wake-up call” (pp. 126-127). Because Warren equates spiritual maturity with Richard Foster, it is logical for us to examine what Foster thinks about this subject.

Read the rest of the article here-

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=1118&more=1&c=1